Curse

reaper with no name · Jul 27, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

wouldn't it make more sense to meld earth and wind prayers into more powerful support skills for scyth-ing? Like added damage or more effects.

The problem with buffing Earth or Wind Prayers is that D/Xs aren't the only people who have access to it. Any /D can use them. Buffing Earth and Wind Prayers would just leave the primary dervishes in the same boat as before, unless you made it so that there were key breakpoints at 13+ (like how there's a world of difference between Splinter Weapon at 12 and 14).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awex Mafyews

Dervs can still deal out a fair amount of damage, probably more than an axe or sword warrior from my experiences of both.

The derv forms can make them pretty formidable in PvE although the lack of an IAS does limit them some what. Also the secondary attributes need to be made more useful to a dervish in general PvE, atm they don't seem to sync at all with scythe mastery and Mysticism.

Also if I was to have a ranger in my group I'd rather have them interrupting and condition spreading than using a scythe, and if I was to take a assassin...well actually I just wouldn't take one...ever

Only class I think uses a scythe better is probably warriors for many reasons.

I don't know much about warriors, but I wouldn't be surprised if dervs do indeed outdamage sword or axe warriors (they don't get an AoHM-like skill). However, that doesn't change the fact that a warrior who picks up a scythe will use it better than the dervish.

3 out of the 5 avatars suck. Avatar of Lyssa just gives you extra max energy (which is NOT the same as more energy; it just means you can store more) and higher attack power. Energy is just a means to an end (staying alive, dealing damage, hindering the enemies, or helping someone else do the above). Unfortunately, even with the extra attack power, a scythe warrior still beats out a dervish. As for AoB, well, the IMS doesn't mean much for anything except running (it's not like it makes your whole party run faster like charge!, so you still have to wait for them). The holy damage is meaningless, since you'll already be doing holy damage due to AoHM. And the +40 armor is still not going to let you outtank a warrior. A warrior with Sentinel's Insignias and Conviction has 124 armor against almost everything (it's only 1 point out of strength). With AoB and windwalker's insignias, you can get up to 130. Too bad he can just add Lion's Comfort and laugh as he weathers attacks that would slaughter you. So AoB is pointless. And AoG...well, +17 damage or so is not enough to close the gap in power between the dervish and the scythe warrior. And he's gonna have more armor than you do, and there's still that pesky LC.

AoM and AoD are good, but they are one of the few options available for dervs, and they're technically niche builds (just like every other non-redundant dervish build). There are no "good" general PvE builds for the dervish. You have to design a build that's specially designed to do a couple of things. But never pure damage or tanking if you want to be good, because that's pointless, as there are other classes that can do the same builds but better.

Rangers are supposedly better at scything than dervishes (haven't run the numbers myself, so can't say for sure) because expertise allows them to spam scythe attacks like there's no tomorrow. Ritualists are better at using scythes than dervishes because of spirit's strength. Assassins are better at using scythes than dervishes because of critical strikes and critical agility (they're also tougher, too, btw). And warriors are better scythe users than dervishes because of their armor, strength, and warrior's endurance.

draxynnic · Jul 28, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The problem with buffing Earth or Wind Prayers is that D/Xs aren't the only people who have access to it. Any /D can use them. Buffing Earth and Wind Prayers would just leave the primary dervishes in the same boat as before, unless you made it so that there were key breakpoints at 13+ (like how there's a world of difference between Splinter Weapon at 12 and 14).

If those Earth and Wind Prayers skills are enchantments, however, the X/D doesn't get Mysticism synergising with them.

Quote:

3 out of the 5 avatars suck. Avatar of Lyssa just gives you extra max energy (which is NOT the same as more energy; it just means you can store more) and higher attack power. Energy is just a means to an end (staying alive, dealing damage, hindering the enemies, or helping someone else do the above). Unfortunately, even with the extra attack power, a scythe warrior still beats out a dervish.

I haven't run the numbers against your baseline, but I find Lyssa makes for a good synergy with Radiant Scythe...

...and believe me, sometimes that energy does come in useful. If you're throwing a lot of enchantments, Mysticism will mean you probably have the energy to reapply them when they expire, but the deep energy pool can be useful in getting them all on in the first place.

Quote:

As for AoB, well, the IMS doesn't mean much for anything except running (it's not like it makes your whole party run faster like charge!, so you still have to wait for them). The holy damage is meaningless, since you'll already be doing holy damage due to AoHM. And the +40 armor is still not going to let you outtank a warrior. A warrior with Sentinel's Insignias and Conviction has 124 armor against almost everything (it's only 1 point out of strength). With AoB and windwalker's insignias, you can get up to 130. Too bad he can just add Lion's Comfort and laugh as he weathers attacks that would slaughter you. So AoB is pointless.

This is my least favourite avatar, but for the sake of argument: If you're getting the full benefit out of Windwalker's Insignia, you could also be getting the full benefit of Mystic Regeneration and/or Mystic Vigor. Lion's Comfort gives up to 114 points for every 4 strikes of adrenaline, while Mystic Vigor gives back 25 points per hit - so 100 points in the time it takes to recharge LC. Plus, Mystic Vigor doesn't require spending as much time in skill activation, nor does it risk 'wasting' adrenaline.

Of course, survivability doesn't matter if the rest of the party is killed around you, unless you're using a farming build that CAN solo the zone.

Quote:

And AoG...well, +17 damage or so is not enough to close the gap in power between the dervish and the scythe warrior. And he's gonna have more armor than you do, and there's still that pesky LC.

That's 17 lifestealing, not 17 damage, which means it can get through things that damage can't... and also another 17 health per hit.

On the whole, I do agree with you that the Dervish needs a buff, but I don't think the avatars are at fault.

reaper with no name · Jul 28, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Scythe Warriors and Scythe Sins have more energy than they know what to do with, so synergy with mysticism is irrelevant.

The Mystic Regeneration applies to the Scythe Warrior too, though. He still wins in survivability.

+17 lifestealing is no different in terms of offense from +17 damage. The Scythe Warrior is beating the dervish by something like +30 or more damage from attack skills.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 28, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Make Aura of Holy Might scale duration with mysticism, like tntf does.

reaper with no name · Jul 28, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I've brought up the idea before, and somebody submitted it as a formal suggestion, quoting me in the OP.

What I learned from that thread (and this one) is that you can get away with QQing about dervishes sucking, but if you suggest nerfing other scythe users, people say to buff dervishes, and if you suggest buffing dervishes, people say you should nerf other scythe users. In other words, you just can't win.

draxynnic · Jul 29, 2009, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Scythe Warriors and Scythe Sins have more energy than they know what to do with, so synergy with mysticism is irrelevant.

Which, if I understand correctly, requires specific builds (scythewars need WE as their elite, for instance). If the prayers were more competitive, this added versatility may make the difference. (Frankly, in normal play, I find Mysticism is often enough, especially if the monks are using short-term prots. Once you've got enough, more is often unnecessary.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The Mystic Regeneration applies to the Scythe Warrior too, though. He still wins in survivability.

True, but I ran the numbers on Mystic Vigor versus LC, so that argument still applies if we assume the scythewar and the dervish both have Mystic Regen as the baseline. Plus, if the scythewar is wearing the 13+Str insignia, that doesn't leave many attribute points to split between Earth Mastery and Scythe Mastery - with the cap on Regen the scythewar can probably afford not to have that many points in Earth Prayers if they're running three other enchantments, but they'll still need to be reapplying more often.

Quote:

+17 lifestealing is no different in terms of offense from +17 damage. The Scythe Warrior is beating the dervish by something like +30 or more damage from attack skills.

Actually, it is different, when the target has something that protects it from normal damage (lifesteal will get you over a Prot Spirit cap, for instance, or you can attack something that has immunity to damage without worrying about said immunity). And it gives survivability in the form of +17 health every hit.

More importantly, though, when you have a +17 baseline, you only need to get another +15 or so out of attack skills to match what you're comparing it with.

reaper with no name · Jul 29, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

The fact that warriors need WE is the only thing that makes WS dervishes be considered good. It's the one thing they have over them (of course, the dervish needs to make use of their secondary to have something over the scythe sin).

11 str + headgear + 1 minor rune. 6 earth prayers is enough to maintain conviction.

Ok, fair enough on the lifestealing. But still, it's not enough to overcome the sheer offensive power the scythe warrior holds over the dervish.

SirSporks · Jul 29, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Make Aura of Holy Might scale duration with mysticism, like tntf does.

!yes! that way the other classes are still better than the derv at everything! ..

the derv sucks, has average/weak attack power, no synergy with other classes that makes them more useful than the other class. Example! Ele's can heal like no other in PvP and PvE because of the skills they have. Rangers do damage more consistently because of there main attr, they can spam, spam, and spam away with no drawbacks. War's have armor pen linked to there main attr. Sins crit for massive damage. What does a derv have... well.. nothing.. cheesy elites, weak support skills, mediocre attacks, and an uberbad main attr line (almost as bad as the ele's)

i tried playing my derv, but everything outdoes it! War's do more damage, rangers spread conditions better, rit's, ele's, and necro's support better, and all these classes have either skills or attr lines that make energy so much easier to manage.

Derv's just don't cut it for me

They can be interesting in PvE for farming, running, and some weird tanking builds (lol, who tanks anymore for general pve?), but in pvp they are just straight up outdone.

Grim Lich · Jul 31, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, it is different, when the target has something that protects it from normal damage (lifesteal will get you over a Prot Spirit cap, for instance, or you can attack something that has immunity to damage without worrying about said immunity). And it gives survivability in the form of +17 health every hit.

More importantly, though, when you have a +17 baseline, you only need to get another +15 or so out of attack skills to match what you're comparing it with.

Yeah I would agree that the new PvE AoG is a huge improvement. And that +17 damage goes a long way to replace Mystic Vigor as a self heal. When you hit three enemies at once your stealing 51 health, which is pretty damn impressive for a regular attack. (Then again, hitting 100s with AoL in PvP has always been impressive to me.)

Lishy · Jul 31, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

I would actually disagree with other posts. Dervs would be amazing in pve and pvp if they simply reverted them to the start of nf.
In other words:
REVERT PIOUS ASSAULT AND BRING BACK ENCHANTMENT JUGGLING!!
If you're juggling enchantments, you won't be able to be a critical scythe and you won't have mysticism either to benefit.

draxynnic · Jul 31, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Or make something else behave like Pious Assault used to. That change was supposed to be a buff (giving Dervishes another option for Deep Wound) but in practise it seriously hit one of the other Dervish builds.

IronSheik · Jul 31, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Instant recharging fast activating pious assault was bomb.

draxynnic · Jul 31, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Aye. Dust Cloak-Pious Assault. Staggering Force-Pious Assault. Heart of Holy Flame-Pious Assault. What's that? Everything nearby is blind, weakened, and most importantly of all, well on the way to being dead. Meanwhile, my Avatar of Dwayna-hood means that I've regained about 300 hit points and shook off 6 hexes in the process.

If I'd stuck to that for longer rather than experimenting with a Balthazar-based build, my Dervish would probably have kept Survivor for longer.

You can do it with other Pious skills like Pious Light, but Assault made sure that at the point the enchantment was stripped, the target would be within range.

Axel Zinfandel · Jul 31, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

It would be nice if Myticism's energy gain triggers when you reapply enchantments too, rather then having to wait for them to run out.

draxynnic · Jul 31, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Aye. While you can always just wait until it expires before you reapply... sometimes you have good reason not to want to.

bvc310 · Jul 31, 2009, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Expertise should only effect ranger skills and Critical should only effect dagger attacks. Solved problem.

Ben-A-BoO · Jul 31, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bvc310

Expertise should only effect ranger skills and Critical should only effect dagger attacks. Solved problem.

Not the first time we do read this here. And no it's not the solution. As stated before the Warrior and Rit would still be able to be the 'better' scyhtwielder's (in pve).

As others I do see the main problem being the primary 'mysticism' (as discussed in length above) and of course the lack of frontline utility that makes our warriors such killing machines.

I don't know how many Monks I saw dropping by the force of Bull's strike (KD) with Stonefist insignia (3sec), Frenzy (IAS), Rush (IMS), Dchop (interrupt) and whatever Deep Wound was chosen; plus maintainable steady DPS at the tip toes of the backline (no time to rest). Having a war frenzy into you while you know his bulls is recharged wins just by psychological pressure...

Dervishes just ain't having those tools within their skill set and if they have they usually devote and awful lot to be as effective as their frontline counterpart in only one of those departments. Usually by being forced into using a secondary. And they tend to eat much more energy from their monks due to their low armor; plus HP just ain't cutting it under pressure.

tl;dr: To be effective in pve they need a ridiculous buff (pve / pvp split skills)
In pvp I don't see them coming back without a big overhaul (ain't gonna happen).

reaper with no name · Jul 31, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Ok, let's try to simplify this problem.

Problem: Warriors, Assassins, Ritualists, and possibly Rangers use the scythe better than the Dervish.

Reasons:
1) Warriors get strength and WE
2) Assassins get critical strikes
3) Ritualists get Spirit's Strength
4) Rangers get expertise
5) Mysticism offers no synergy with the scythe
6) Mysticism sucks as energy management
7) Dervishes lack a good IAS
8) Dervish has nothing he can use to buff his damage output that the competition can't abuse equally well (or better)

Possible fixes to each problem:
1) Nerf WE to not work with scythes
2) Nerf critical strikes to only affect daggers
3) Nerf Spirit's Strength in some way (though to be fair, the dervish still has more armor than the Ritualist, so it may be acceptable for the scythe Rit to exceed the Dervish in pure damage)
4) Nerf expertise to not affect scythe attacks OR make the dervish able to spam scythe attacks just as easily
5) Make mysticism cause scythes to be more effective, such as with an innate stackable IAS, life-stealing, or linking the number of enemies a scythe can strike to mysticism
6) Buff Mysticism's energy management, either by making it 1 energy per 2 ranks or (preferably) by reworking it so that it reduces costs of enchantments or causes energy gain upon a successful strike (perhaps a combination of the latter two would be best)
7) Buff Heart of Fury, Onslaught, or any of the other currently-crappy IAS skills the dervish has so that the class finally gets a maintainable +33% IAS
8) Modify the skills that scythe users use to boost damage output so that the dervish gets more benefit from them (this is the single easiest way to fix the profession; linking the duration of AoHM to mysticism, for example, so that only dervishes could keep it up for long would singlehandledly make the dervish the best scythe wielder and eliminate the need for any other changes, since no one else would be able to beat him at his role)

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jul 31, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Weapon lines are not primary ones for a reason, so other professions can use them.

Looking at why the others are better comes from their primary line synergizing more with weapons in general, while the derv's primary adds no synergy at all with weapons.

Instead of asking that all the other classes be nerfed so that the derv can be the best, why not ask that the derv get some buffs and reworks to skills as well as the primary line so they don't suck as much.

That seems to make more sense than asking to make everyone suck at using the scythe just so the derv can be the best at it but still suck at it.

What makes this game fun is that you can synergize primary professions with secondary, the problem with Drevs is they only have synergy with in their own profession lines, and their primary is greatly lacking compared to the other melee classes.

What some of you are suggesting is to remove synergy from other classes so that the Derv can still suck at using their own weapon line. You're not removing that they suck at it you're just making the other classes suck more than the Derv does.

Tenebrae · Jul 31, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Mysticism needs rework as spawning power did , SP got a lil buff .... maybe they do the same with mysticism . What is never gonna happen is W , A and R getting nerfed so D can look a little less worse than now.